there is the myth of nelson mandela, there is the reality of nelson mandela, and then is the nelson mandela that you knew and there is the nelson mandela who obviously understood who he was and what he was and had time to reflect on all of this. tell me about the man, just -- >> well, i have been -- i have talked a lot, i have talked to you about -- >> rose: this morning. >> about the myth of him being a st. he hated being called a saint, and he wasn't a saint. he wasn't a saint for all kind of reasons, in terms of his own private behavior, which doesn't even matter, but he wasn't a saint because he was ultimaly a pragmatic politician. he, you know, people compare him to gandhi, people compare him to martin luther king, he said to me, he said, for those men, nonviolence was a principle. for me, nonviolence was a tactic. i used it as long as it was successful, but when it stopped being successful, i turned the anc into a military armed wing because my plate goal, my overriding principle was premium for my people and justice for my people and anything that would get me there was what road i w